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TUNE IN TO HEAR ABOUT
- What goes into copy that converts
- Why knowing your ideal client intimately is key
- How to find your brand voice, story and ethos
- The importance of pre launch priming
- How to build your authority using podcasts
- How coaching, training and a team can take you to the next level
Mai-kee Tsang is a Launch Strategist, Copywriter, Podcast Host & Coach who helps purpose-driven entrepreneurs to build their authority in business, and discover their Brand DNA so that they can thrive when they launch their signature courses. As a Launch Strategist, she’s at the front lines during course launches from start to finish. And with 5 years of coaching under her belt, she’s able to dig deep to understand the true desires and fears of her clients’ customers - to turn it into empowering copy. Outside of her 1-1 client work, she hosts The Quiet Rebels Podcast which is a dedicated space to help her listeners to create the courage to own their voice, message, and worth in both life and business - without having to be the loudest person in the room.
CONNECT WITH MAI-KEE
Anna Jonak [00:01:24] Welcome to Episode 66 of the Raising Her Game Podcast. Anna here and I'm so excited to be sharing this episode with you as I get to connect with Mai-kee Tsang today on one of my favourite topics, in fact many of my favourite topics because this awesome lady for those of you that may or may not know her is not only a launch strategist but a copywriter and a podcast host and a coach. Oh my God, right? Like literally so right up our alley in terms of all the things that Flori and I love. So, in fact, I'm gonna have to tell Flori to listen in to this podcast because I know she's going to be super excited. Now, you are all about helping purpose driven entrepreneurs to build their authority in business and discover their brand DNA and also to help them thrive when launching their signature courses. And, I know there'll be many students inside our programs and I'm sure lots of listeners who are in the throes or have that big vision of wanting to launch a course, so I trust that the conversation will be having say will be really useful for them. And you've been on the kind of trenches or in the trenches of course launches for quite a long time now, haven't you?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:02:30] Yes, I have. And, by the way, I just wanna say thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm glad you're really really excited to dig into this topic. And, yes let's definitely dive in. So, I've been in the launch space for a couple of years now but I think my journey into it is very twisty and turny and so getting into it is gonna be bit of a story.
Anna Jonak [00:02:50] Hey, there's nothing wrong with a bit of a story and I was saying to Mai-kee when we just started, I was going to ask her a really personal question because basically this lovely lady is so beautiful and youthful in comparison to my rather haggard aged self. So, tell our audience how old you are?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:03:07] Oh OK. Now, I feel like I need to defend you. You're not a haggard person, what the heck. [Anna laughs] When you told me, when Anna told me her age, I was like no no no. I don't believe it at all. But bless you for saying such lovely things about me. Thank you. I've just turned 26 this year and I kind of went straight into this entrepreneurial journey straight out of university because something that Anna and I have in common is that we have a psychology degree and I didn't follow through on that career path and the reason for it basically because Day One when I started university every fibre of my being was telling me Mai-kee this isn't for you. And I thought dammit because I'm here in the UK, I was in the last academic year before our university fees tripled. So, my university fee per year was about 3K. And, my partner who is an academic year lower than me had to pay 9K. So, I felt like I had to be super grateful for the fact that I got into my first choice. My parents were happy with my choice and it obviously had to be win for me I had to pick a subject I wanted to do and so you can imagine how devastating it was to go through all of that work and study so much, get the grade I needed in order to actually get that intuitive hit in the face that oh no no, this is not the right choice. And, so my university journey I was just trying to force myself through it because I did do have a psychology degree under my belt and it does help, but it's just the way that I was taught. I just didn't love the way that human beings were almost seen as test subjects and I get it that there needs to be some objective way to be able to measure human behaviour. I didn't love that we weren't able to embrace the individual differences. At least that's not how I was taught. And I was like no I really want to help the individual because I wanted to become a counsellor but it just didn't pan out that way and how it all happened actually going into this journey is in my second year of university, I was in an abusive relationship and that experience it just showed me how much I had been coasting for my whole life and you know didn't really care too much about myself and that was enough for someone to take advantage of me in the most brutal way. And so, I had to literally go down to rock bottom in order to kind of take a stand for myself that "No, like I am not taking this anymore." And then, so when I thankfully exited that situation, I just wanted to take care of myself. So, I took care of my mental health. I took care of my physical health. I was walking to the farmer's market every week and getting fresh vegetables. All that jazz. [laughs] And, what happened is through the power of Facebook ads. Seriously, Facebook ads are awesome. [Anna says "Yep. Facebook is listening yep"] Exactly, Facebook is listening. So, I was targeted to look at this health coaching school and I was like "ooh what is this?" because I was just so fascinated by the impact of healthy food on our mental well-being and of course our bodies. And so, OK I just looked really into it and then the sales messaging was on point. Whoever was their copywriter tell her. [both laugh] Because I felt coaching, this is what I want and that's everything that I wanted. My psychology degree but it just didn't pan out that way. And, so after I got my psychology degree, I just went straight into studying for coaching and here's what I found Anna, just like many other coaches out there who have, they are newly accredited or they've got a certification, they're amazing coaches but not so great at the sales and marketing. [laughs] And, that's where I found myself and what happened is that I started following a lot of mentors because I noticed that I was really struggling to get clients at the beginning and then this is what happened. I went all in to a Facebook challenge where the mentor that I really looked up to, he ran a challenge for his community of over 10,000 people. And, I went all in for it because I wanted the grand prize which is to work with him as his mentee for one year for free. And I thought oh my God [Anna says "Oh my gosh. Amazing."] I want this. I want this. And so, I did. I went all ham and cheese on it as we say. [laughs] And, yes, those things like you know taking off my makeup on a Facebook live stream acceptance. I talked about my abusive relationship and another but my favourite of all time was getting a group of guys in corporate suits to dance to the Gangnam Style with me and record it. I do actually have video evidence of that [Anna says "Oh my God I think we might need to put this in the show notes. So, please share."] Yes absolutely. [both laugh] And then, yes so, he chose me. But here's how it all happened and how I went into this current career path I am now. So, that mentorship turned into an internship four months in and so he just totally loved what I had to say. I loved what he had to say and then he took me on as his first team member for his very rapidly growing business. So, his YouTube channel kept going viral. So he had a flood of audience members who wanted to learn more from him. And, this is how it will pan into the 13 live launches that we did in one year.
Anna Jonak [00:07:49] I was going to ask you that question because you sent me some notes and I was like 13 live launches that is insane because we've done... we're actually I say this we're about to go back to back into two but we were kind of like averaging one every two months. So, 13 live launches like I mean doing, but I have to ask like what kind of launch? Like what are the activations? Because launches are generally a pretty exhausting like they’re full on.
Mai-kee Tsang [00:08:16] Yes exactly. And, I have to accredit that a lot of the reasons why we were able to do 13 launches and we actually had enough eyeballs who actually wanted what we were doing is because he kept releasing content that was going viral. So, we had floods of thousands of people of joining per day. So, his first viral hit added 50,000 subscribers to his YouTube channel in just three days. So, you can imagine that we had a lot of those viral hits. So that's why we had a huge audience to cater to. So, there was demand there and that is what's missing at a lot launches but we'll get to that in just a bit.
Anna Jonak [00:08:50] Yeah. I was going to say if you've got a massive audience and the fact is you've constantly got someone new to market to as opposed to as you say with most launches that people are launching to an exhausted list.
Mai-kee Tsang [00:09:01] Yes exactly. So, but we didn't really have an exhausted list because people just kept wanting more. Like I wound up being first of all a community manager before I started doing... Actually, did some video animations and one of my video animations that I did for him also went viral so I thought oh OK. [laughs] So a lot of skills I picked out working with this guy. And, so because we segmented the audience very early on, I think that was the key for us. So, we didn't feel as if we're marketing all the time on this brand-new masterclass that we're doing every single month. And so, that was how we managed to get away with it in the nicest way possible is because we knew who to talk to about certain things. We had a speaking program, we had a personal development program and we had a business program and then later on towards the end of the mentorship, sorry internship with him we released a membership site. So, there were a lot of people who wanted different things and we made sure to target the right people per launch basically. So that's how we managed to do it very often is because there was natural demand there so actually, we didn't have to push so much like they were being pulled towards us. And so, that's why we were able to sell out these programs all the time because there was demand.
Anna Jonak [00:10:13] Amazing! So, the audience generation was pretty much organic from the content he was putting out as opposed to, I mean my assumption is here potentially would have been driving some cold traffic as well like you would have been a lot going on in terms of just like cold traffic as well. [Mai-kee says "Nope, it was all organic."] What was he doing? What was the secret? S**t. And who is this person can you tell me?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:10:34] OK. I can. So, his name is Tim Han from Success Insider. Yeah. So, name drop. I haven't revealed his name on many podcast interviews. But I am proud to have been able to work with him because he taught me so much and actually he gave me his blessing and he actually urged me to restart my own business because he saw that I had so much potential and he felt that I couldn't fulfil it working with him because he was like that I have a big mission and he helped me to see that copywriting was one of my biggest strengths because I didn't know what copy was. How it happened is that he just wound up giving me some emails to write for the webinar sequences and then I was like OK Sure. And, I didn't know what I was doing but I knew his audience inside and out because I was in that community and I managed it and I knew him very well because we talk every day. So, I knew his voice. I knew his catch phrases. I knew his stories so I knew how to embed all of that into it. I just didn't understand what I was doing. They converted really well. And then, he kept giving me that "try this one and this one and this one" and they just kept growing from there. And then, when it hit our one-year mark of working together he just came to me and we had like a one-year review of how we would like to work together. We loved working together. But again, he just felt that he literally said to me Mai-kee, I really feel that you're an entrepreneur not an intrapreneur.
Anna Jonak [00:11:55] Nice. You got to love that. That he released a legend from his community. You were doing wonders for him and helping him to actually say I see you. I see you. I see your value. I see your worth. I see the impact you can have and like not that you're wasted here but you can be so much more. So, go do it."
Mai-kee Tsang [00:12:14] Exactly. And that's his catchphrase as well. At the end of every single video he would sign off saying "Follow your heart and take action and go live the life you are born to live." And, one of his biggest values is congruency. So, he would feel very conflicted in himself if he kept me knowing that I could do more. And, I thank the heavens and the stars for his blessing and everything he taught me because it's really set me off in a way even though I'm not a coach anymore technically, even though I used coaching in my copywriting which is a lovely way how all organically flows in, is thanks to him that he was able to express myself in different ways and learn new things. And that's really set me off to have a business that you know that I'm actually not struggling. You know I'm actually getting clients. They can see my authority and the fact that I worked with him in the trenches with 13 launches in one year. That's very different than many other launch strategies out there like I have a lot of launch strategies friends. None of them had the same experience as me and I know that I don't mean to say that mine is better but it's quite rare for 13 launches and one year.
Anna Jonak [00:13:14] That is. I mean I was literally going when I saw that, how many have we done? I mean we must have done something. We probably done the equivalent in the last couple of years. I mean we have been relatively active but I can't even imagine all in one year. And, I mean, I think that it's incredible that you are where you are at the age of 26 and that you followed your heart and also it really resonated me what you said from the perspective of you know psychology and the way that psychology can look at people and look at human nature and can sometimes also pull people down in some ways whereas coaching is very different because it's so much more empowering and impactful in a very different way. So, that completely resonates with me that, I mean I love the kind of background that I have in psychology and a lot of the principles. But for me, as soon as I kind of found out about the whole concept of coaching I was like Oh my God like this is it, right? [Mai-kee agrees] This is I'm like this most optimistic person I want to go out there and change the world and for me that's what coaching is all about. Whereas psychology kind of has lended itself to more for looking at problems and kind of defining those problems as opposed to looking at solutions. So, I think that it's great that you went straight from doing your degree in psychology into a coaching program and then you had this amazing opportunity and now at the age of 26 that you have had so much experience. It's phenomenal. And, the fact that you recognise as well which I take my hat off to is that you know you lacked the skills around sales and marketing. Fortunately, for Flori and I we actually both had corporate careers in marketing and advertising. So, when we kind of came out to launch our business, I've re-trained as a life coach having a baby in my 30s and because I had that background and that kind of like aggressive like chasing behaviour with sales and things like that, it put me in really good stead for going and building my business and Flori had done this kind of like you know she was all about marketing and she was running a consultancy, so when we came together that's one of the things that I think as a combination we've done incredibly in our business is it's all been the sales and marketing and kind of going out and you know happily putting money behind traffic with confidence and going for it. But it's something that a lot of people, they don't really understand the concepts and it is very hard to like you know get out there and suddenly grow your business from nothing if you don't have that skill set.
Mai-kee Tsang [00:15:27] Absolutely. So, you guys definitely had that advantage and I was like oh great I'm learning the hard way that you can't just make it just because you're great at coaching. And, I think that's the biggest shame and that's what really drives me is that I see so many super talented people at their craft but they just don't understand the impact that sales and marketing will actually help them to continue doing what they love. And, it's a shame because you know there are a lot of other people who focus a lot on the sales marketing and they're not so great at their craft. So, I’m like ‘oh the injustice there’.[laughs].
Anna Jonak [00:15:55] I know right. But you know what beneath the sales and marketing which you alluded to earlier on is the copy and the understanding of the client. So, that in itself it's one thing to be able to sell like you know run ads or do whatever. But if you don't know your audience and you don't know their pain points and you don't know how to language what's going on, it's not going to work either. So, [Mai-kee agrees] I mean, so many pieces the puzzle. I mean, talk to me about copywriting like talk to me about I guess what you've learned? And what your insights are, you could give to somebody when it comes to communicating in their marketing based on what you've learned?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:16:27] Oh. So, when it comes to copywriting, I think for those who aren't copywriters and they're looking to hire one someday, something that we need to just agree on and get on the same page about is the fact that the copy is not for them. It's actually for their ideal customer. And sometimes, you know business owners get so wrapped up in what they want to say and how they want to say it that when I send them copy that is actually optimised, sometimes they would change it,that is fine if they want to change it because of their tone. There are some phrases that they wouldn't say but sometimes they just wind up changing the entire thing they don't understand how certain phrases and a certain structure is actually on purpose to actually create the transformation because that's what copy is. It's about communicating where they are now at least in sales messaging anyway because I work in conversion copy not so much content copy. So, for me it's all about transforming the mindset of the reader from point A to where they can be at point B. But, the problem is there isn't a lot of copy out there, it's almost quite I guess a new evolution in a way that there's a lot of copy out there that's very pushy, is very forceful, it's kind of backing people into a corner especially during launches, "oh, when the timer get out if you haven't buy then your life is going to suck without this program" like no. [laughs] I really like detest that sort of approach and that's why I'm very thankful that my copywriting mentor's names Ry Schwartz but with people like Amy Porterfield, Janet Stark, Todd Herman that kind of calibre of amazing people. [Anna agrees] Yeah. And so, he guested on my podcast and he walked us through his approach called "coaching the conversion" and it's all about empowering the prospect to make the right decision for themselves because a lot of copy they kind of hit the wrong awareness level. So, there are five awareness levels and depending on where your ideal client is at now, if you for example, if they're not even aware they have a problem about something and you're telling them the solution to a problem that they're not even aware of is that the messaging is just not going to hit them. They're like OK that's great that there's a solution out there but I don't have a problem. So, we need to actually educate them what their problem is and what are the consequences of the problem that they have. And then, we provide the solution. But, if you kind of skip a couple steps because you just are totally unaware of where they're at in their journey then it's just not going to land. So, just being aware of the fact that your copy is supposed to meet them where they're at and guide them to where you would like them to go because you know your solution is going to help them. But, at the same time, it's not forcing them to only go your way and that is the difference in the new and upcoming copy method today about coaching the conversion is the fact that we at least, we're basically saying "Hey, whichever side of this fence that you're going to make this decision on, please do it for you, not for us but for you because you're going to stay at this painful place if you don't make a decision. So, if that's going to be a decision to not buy. That's great. But at least own your decision. Take responsibility for that." And that's what I absolutely love about the kind of copy that I've been taught to write because after I did all of this for my first mentor and then I learned formally. So, I have a shiny badge on my website being like "Hey, I finished 10x Launches by Copy Hackers" because at least I've learned that coaching the conversion in the very practical way so now I understand the actual sequence of all the launches because when I did the 13 launches in one year, I didn't quite know exactly what was going on but I was just naturally rolling with it. I was like OK that's cool. We need to set the webinar. We've got the landing page. I have got to be in the chat. Got to do the sales calls. That was all a system that we're running naturally. But I love knowing the why and I love having a system so that's why I'm so happy I have now when I walk my own client through launches. But that's what I would say about copy is just meeting people where they’re at and helping them get to where they want to go, not where you want them to go.
Anna Jonak [00:20:09] Well, I love also the fact that it's coaching, isn't it? You're asking them to make a decision but to own the decision. [Mai-kee agrees] And, it's you know take responsibility. Whatever you do it's not you know we're not forcing you either way but own the decision that you're going to stay where you choose to stay and think about the consequences of that impact and if that fits, that fits. That's fine. Like Absolutely. I'm like ahhh speaking my language. Totally. I mean look, copy is so powerful and certainly we've kept a tracker basically of all the emails we've sent across multiple launches over time from subject lines to kind of the content to see which ones drive, best opens, best clicks, the best conversions because obviously you know having that right sequence of communication as you're saying is just so crucial. So, totally talking my language. Oh my gosh. So, copywriting is obviously one thing that you do. So, is that something that you do for clients? Or you teach clients to do?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:21:01] Well, right now I do it for clients and I am slowly getting to a point where I would love to be able to hire a team to help me out with the copy because launches, they’re a big complex beast [laughs] and what I actually love doing more is actually strategising the launch. As a launch strategist, I meet with a client and we basically cost the vision of what the entire launch is. We set the goals and because the thing is not a lot copywriters are able to step into this role and at the same time I want to be a... because I'm good at copy. I'm really good at it. But I would say that is not a 100 percent love for me. I love coaching my clients and that's where I feel that my past health coaching is really coming back full circle because I'm really able to take care of them because again some copywriters are much better than what I do but they're unable to coordinate like I can. So, I love being able to partner up with them so we can make a kick-ass team. So, because for one person to do a launch for every single element is a lot of work. And, so I'd love to be able to really be able to just like give my all to my clients without burning out because it's very easy to burn out during a launch. If you don't know what you're doing or you have too much to do just for one person. And, yes so, I don't teach them yet and I write the copy for them but I am getting that point where I'm actually hiring a team to help me out with launches so we can really round it off.
Anna Jonak [00:22:22] Awesome. Well, I think that there's definitely you know there are so many moving pieces from the running of the ads, the writing of the emails, the timing of everything to the content and the actual writing of a webinar or a challenge like you know. Again, there's a psychology to it or a process to it where you're educating and you're kind of drip feeding little things, you're leaving things open, you're getting people thinking and so totally well you should totally let people know about that when you do it. I'm sure anyone be like "Yes, I'll take that on. Someone can run my launch for me" and I trust that because you're obviously the way that you approach it, you know it's all about understanding the client and there's a process for you in terms of I think so you've got here about interviews and reviews and [Mai-kee agrees] again you're talking my language so talk to me about your process that you want you know that you coach your clients through when it comes to helping them to formulate the perfect launch strategy for them, that's obviously going to deliver results and impact. [Mai-kee says "Now you speak my language."] She's stepping up the plate people. Watch out. [both laugh]
Mai-kee Tsang [00:23:25] So, this is my launch process I take my clients through, it’s a three phase framework, it’s called the Black Belt Ethos and I just want to quickly riffed on that for a second that that Black Belt Ethos. Well, first of all I do martial arts which is why I have that theme. You'll see actually on my Service page on my website is there are the martial arts scene, references to ninjas and Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker [laughs] and so there are lot references there. But, basically what a black belt symbolises in martial arts is a constant improvement. It's an endless pursuit of excellence and with a humble mindset. And that's what I absolutely love about that. So, for example, my Senseis, the ones who are black belts, they never treat us as if you know they're better than us. They always treat us as equals and that's amazing because you know a lot of people abuse their power in today's world but they don't. Not at all. And, I absolutely love that mentality that you know it's just been passed on and they're teaching new belts to upgrade to the next level. And, so that's why I chose that because that symbolises the kind of clients I want to work with. You know people who continually strive to be the best they can and serve the best they can and they're still humble human beings and it's beautiful. And, the ethos, the reason why I chose ethos is because it's one of the three pillars of influence and persuasion all the way back from ancient Greece along the pathos and logos and so ethos is one of those pillars actually missing a lot of the time. And, the thing is a lot of people are worried that people are going to copy their stuff, right? And, I'm not gonna lie I've been there like ‘oh look what if someone's gonna like take this Black Belt Ethos thingy from me". But the thing is a lot of people can copy the logic. So, they can copy the stats and figures. They can copy the emotional pain points that you hear and everything like that but a lot people are missing the ethos part which is the credibility and the unique character that who's able to teach these things because, have you ever like I'm not sure about you but like for me whenever I said something to my little sister she kind of takes it one in one ear and out the other. But, as soon as an authority figure, so, my auntie or her dad or a different sister [Anna laughs] but you know when they said she's "oh yeah I'll take it on" and I'm like "excuse me, I said the exact same thing." [laughs] But that just goes to show it's a different authority figure, a different credible character and that's what a lot of people are missing. And, so that is why my three phase framework is gonna focus on this. So, my first phase is called H to H touch. So, what this is all about? is about marketing to human. It's not a business. It's a human. Whether it's B2C or B2B, regardless, you're speaking to humans at the end of the day. And, until cyborgs and martians are able to pay money I'm gonna focus on this. [Anna says "Yes. Yes, you should."] So, this phase is all about really understanding your ideal customer. So, we cannot go anywhere until we've really nailed this down and this is probably gonna be something that people roll their eyes and like yeah I know my ideal customer so why drawa stick figure on a piece of paper and all this kind of stuff. There is so much more than that. It really helps to just think of an actual human being and actually speaking to that human being. So, to start off, I take my clients through the survey process so I help them to write the survey. They send out a list. I send them the script and everything so they just need to send it to their list. So that's just to get an initial feel of what people want and what people need and where they're struggling. But oh Anna it’s when I'm able to get on one on one video calls [Anna agrees] and actually speak to them because there are so many unspoken cues that you can pick up in a video call. And, it's because and this is where I mentioned that you know coaching is coming back full circle because I'm able to do this because I've helped coach clients before and this process isn't about me coaching them but actually activating those listening skills, those active listening skills instead of just being passive and listening to respond. This is I think it's called Global listening where you kind of listen for the things in between the lines of what they're not saying [Anna agrees] But the golden phrases to look out for are things like I shouldn't tell you this but like I'm embarrassed to admit this but it's just things like that is the goal and the thing is copy is never from scratch ever. [Anna agrees] So, a true copywriter will never just start from a blank page. They know they're straight to the source of who we are serving and so that is why Phase 1 is all about getting into the trenches and understanding the customer. And, it's not just the survey but I really like it's mandatory, it's like I'm like "no, I have to speak to your clients whether you like it or not." So, of course you know I send out the script and I give access to the recordings to my clients so they know why I'm asking so as to complete transparency there. But that is a first base that we have to start off with.
Anna Jonak [00:27:43] Can I just complete kudos to you. But it totally mirrors what we do in our business in terms of with our when people are starting out and they're literally understanding the demands of their products and services or where they're gonna take the business, it's exactly the same thing. It's surveying, it’s phone interviews, it’s conversations and certainly from like I do a lot of our copy and I'm not professing by any means that I'm like a great copywriter. But I've definitely learned to exactly that it's the conversations, it's the snippets, it's the interviews where you're lifting up phrases and then you're utilising it back in your copy, your sales pages, your emails and things like that because you're literally using their words back at them so they're feeling understood, right?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:28:22] Yes exactly. And that is key. And then phase two. So, this is when I finally satisfy the client because at one point, they're like ‘oh they are saying all this but that's not what I want to say, right?’ [Anna says "It's not about you. Get over yourself. Come on."] Yes. Exactly. So, my second phase is called Brand DNA. So, this is basically where I go deep into my client and their business to understand what makes their brand unique. So, this is when I really break down their voice. So, what I would do is to take a piece of their copy, their best copy that they feel are oh yeah this sounds like me. So, I'll take multiple versions of that whether it's from a social media post or their best email, a blog post, whichever it is. I would take that copy and I'll run it through a tone analyser and it'll tell me the emotions out there that their copy is eliciting.So, is it happiness? Is it sadness? Is it being tentative? Like all that kind of stuff. It will tell me how they are currently coming across and we'll have to see if they're a match between how they want to be heard versus how they are actually heard. And there actually isn't a mismatch most of the time. They actually are on the right path. But the key right here is just to really understand them and what phrases they love, which ones they hate and what really represents them like with their story and their value system. That's one of my favourite things. And a quick exercise for anyone who really needs to hone in on what their brand values are. I want you to think about the things that make you angry in your marketplace. Like what does your business stand for? Like oh I start my business because ‘this isn’t right’. So that is like one side of the coin but the second side of the coin I feel is more powerful and that is what makes you feel guilty. [Anna says "Hmmmm. Like it."] And, just to give a background of those things, when you are angry someone has violated your values. And, as you can probably tell, when you feel guilty, you are the person who's violating your own values. Yes exactly. And so, that is too powerful just to really understand what really drives you. But, the guilt like whenever I say the guilt, everyone's like oh my God that's so true.
Anna Jonak [00:30:26] It's so good though. It is so true. And, I've certainly felt it when doing launches, if I ever get the guilt it's because I feel like we've overstepped a boundary of how I want us to be seen or what to portray or something like that and it's like No. I feel there's complete in-congruence and it just makes you feel so uhhh-ahhh-ahh. [Mai-kee says ‘It makes you feel icky and guilty, right?’] That's so right. Yeah, it's horrible.
Mai-kee Tsang [00:30:44] Yeah exactly. So that's a great filter feeling. I like to call them. It's a filter feeling like ‘oh do I feel angry?OK. This is what it's about. I feel guilty, oh OK I need to like step back and change something because something is clearly wrong. So, that is the Brand DNA and a process that I do deep dives with my clients and I just like comb through their social media channels and just to really see whether there is inconsistency or there is consistency because it could be either way but often there is some inconsistency and the problem is you know earlier when I said that I can do the copy as well as launch strategy. Problem is with many people is that they hire so many different people who are just not on the same page. And so, there's inconsistency along the Facebook ads and the webinar, the slide deck and the sales page. Inconsistency somewhere. And, when something is congruent like whether your ideal customer is actually consciously aware of it, they've picked up on something it feels wrong. It's like oh hmmm you know I feel there's a bit of bait and switch here. We're like yes something just seemed off. They won't be able to pin it because they probably wouldn't know that depth that we go through for a launch but they will feel it and they won't understand. But that will really affect their buying decision because they will oohhh you know I'm getting this feeling of slight doubt now, how is it going to be when I buy their program or invest in their membership or something like that? That's why this phase is actually for the entire team. So, one of my clients right now, she's going to launch soon. She had too many people like on the Facebook ad and then on a social media and then it was me for the sales page. The sales page is the last thing but it's going to be the last point but that they reach before they actually buy. But if they're feeling doubtful of that I've got a lot of work to do. And that's not fair. So, I think right, that's why the Brand DNA is also for the entire team to communicate how to talk, how to write the copy, so that it just feels congruent for our client you know for the person who's actually leading this launch. So that is why Phase 2 is also very important and those two need to go hand-in-hand because when you actually research as to what your ideal customers want, you're being strategic with your launch knowing that there is demand, right? And then, the Brand DNA is all about creating that resonance between who you're serving and what you are creating, which brings me to the final stage which is about your Signature Creation. And like there's actually not much to this phase because it's all about combining what you've learned from your clients, what you learn about yourself and just making sure that everything is on point and consistent with your final program. You need to make sure that the messaging is you know it reflects what they want and also how you want to be seen. So, all rounded together, this is the Black Belt Ethos.
Anna Jonak [00:33:10] It was an amazing ethos and just quietly like you said everything resonates on so many levels. And also, I think it just goes to show people the depth of what goes in, the depth of what goes in and needs to be considered for something to be impactful. And as I said I do a lot of the copywriting and I literally am constantly so I write the sales page and I write the content but Flori writes the emails. But I'm checking everything all the way through I'm like hang on a second, something's not fitting like it has like this is constant sense check of the flow.Does every single thing follow through to what we say we're going to do? to how we're going to do it? to this this like there's nothing but oh my God there's a lot to it. [Mai-kee says "a little bit."] Like just you know quick and easy. But I think it just goes to show people what really does go into a launch though in the thinking and how you need to be and what you need to consider to you know... I think that quite often we use is these terms that people come into business quite often ignorant and arrogant even and they're ignorant because they don't know what they don't know and they're arrogant because they think that they can do it. And I love the arrogance because harness that and take it forward but be open and coachable and realise that you are really ignorant and there's so much to learn and then you know take that. And I love that I think when we first connected is that we have so many similarities in that as I said Flori and I've invested like several hundred thousand dollars in education and training and like you in like a few short years you've done the same. I'm like yes!
Mai-kee Tsang [00:34:38] Yeah. I haven't quite hit the six figures yet in regards to investing in myself. But I've hit just over 60,000 US dollars and so, it's getting there. And I don't plan to stop anytime soon. I know my limit. So, my partner's not gonna freak out that our future's like on the back seat. [both laugh] My partner understands that this is a growth stage for me and this year 2019 is all about growth. And, the thing is you know there's always going to be something as you just mentioned there's always going be something that we don't know and is always going to be something that we do eventually need to learn. But just understanding and not getting overwhelmed in the process because I've been an online course junkie before where I just bought so many courses that I just didn't follow through with them.So, I'll admit live on this podcast right now. [both laugh] I've been there and now of course I've actually invested in higher end programs and now I'm in a mastermind as well. And that's a lot is a higher accountability to it. I'm not actually learning new stuff necessarily. [Anna says "It's doing, right? It's more on doing and the accountability."] Yeah. It's the doing, exactly. So, yes, the implementation and the accountability for sure. So yeah absolutely required to invest. I don't think anyone can really go into business and continue to keep up with the times without investing eventually in a course or program or a mastermind. So, I definitely feel that that was the biggest best decisions I've made for myself to actually continue investing because you're taking a chance on you. The thing is we can't blame our success or failures on anyone but ourselves. Yes, there are external circumstances that we just can't control. But you really need to own that and you really need to also just take responsibility for every choice you make whether it's a good or a bad one. And that's good because at least you can see it in one or two ways that like oh no one is coming to save me. Like you can say that in a bad way, no one's come to save me. So, it's up to me no matter what. And, I just I prefer to you know think you know the latter you know but yeah it's up to me. You're in control of your own destiny as cheesy as it sounds.
Anna Jonak [00:36:21] No I say all the time you are your results. Like if you're not where you want to be right now, it's because of the choices you're making, the actions you're taking. You know the values and beliefs you're walking around with them whatever needs to be addressed and cleared out. But, it's also so incredibly empowering on the flip side because if you are just a victim of life then you dis-empower yourself. But, if you're kind of like you know you kind of own what you're doing and realise that you can make different choices. And it really just starts right now you, all you gotta do is draw the line in the sand you know there you are. It's take step forwards and everything can change. And I literally have just run a series of mindset retreats where I've literally done four days with a handful of women and just watching some of them come through those realisations of taking responsibility and stepping up and owning what's going on and realising that like you said no one's coming to save them. It's really completely up to them right now in this moment. We've seen some amazing things and just like it's that's what it's about it, isn't it? It's the other side of it when you see people really embracing life and going all in and trusting they can. That's why we do what we do. That's the stuff that makes you kind of warm and fuzzy but oh my gosh. Well, there's so much gold here and oh my God I might need to listen to it again. I've never even heard of a tone analyser. I mean that is like a little hashtag I'm going to have to go and Google that. [Mai-kee says "Oh I will send it to you don't worry you don’t have to Google."] But, it's so cool though, like it's great learning like new little tips and tricks and things you've not heard around. And, OK, so I think I'll wrap up soon-ish. But I do want to talk to you a bit about mindset because obviously we've talked a little bit about it and I think it'd be really great to talk about your view of what it takes to be successful in a launch from a mindset perspective about what you need to bring to the table basically?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:37:57] So, I think this is kind of mindset and strategy at the same time. So, one of the things that I mentioned like one of the core pieces of success which I know is the reason why we're able to do 13 launches in one year and to sell out all our group programs like 30k per launch. So, you know we quickly rose to the six figure which is fantastic. And, the thing is it's all about building authority and attracting an audience and see, the reason why and, so when you asked earlier about oh you know was there any cold traffic or anything like that. I was like nope there's all organic, all warm sort of thing, of course when they first watch the video they were cold but then they immediately turned like piping hot because they wanted to buy and they wanted to learn more from us. And, the thing is I really feel that there is not enough time spent on pre-launch priming. So, this is all about before you open your cart. It's not just about a week or two before and suddenly you're talking about all the things about your own launch sort of thing, but there's not enough intention all year round because as you mentioned most people that I don't plan to do 13 launches in my own business in one year. I don't plan to do that. My mentor was crazy and awesome. But yeah. So, it's all about being intentional all year round and it doesn't mean that you have to sort of like talk about your launch topic or your program or your course. You don't have to talk about that all year round. It's about the resounding topic that is addressing, the problem that is addressing. And, the thing is you know a lot of people don't do that. They just wind up like talking about it one to two weeks or suddenly to a super important but you need to be able to slowly and surely like just educate your audience that this is the way to go. If you're trying to fit it into a one to two-week time frame before you're cart open, that's why so many people resort to Facebook ads. I'm not saying that they're not powerful. They definitely are. It's how I got my coaching program you know. But, if that is kind of like the end all be all there is so much left on the table because you could be educating people all year round about the problem that you're solving with your business because whichever problem that you're solving, it’s going to splinter into many different course offers that you are offering and some of them are gonna be high end like a mastermind. Some of them are going to be at the beginning stages whereas they begin as membership say or an online course or an e-book. There are so many ways that you can be educating your ideal customer but a lot of people aren't. So, pre-launch is basically anytime outside of your cart open and cart close and it doesn't mean just one to two weeks or a month even beforehand. It's all year round. So, it's about being consistent with your message and showing up consistently as well. But that is the biggest piece on that oh my gosh that people are doing that they're missing so much opportunity here because they are not focusing on the thing that's actually going to really help make their launch a lot easier. Because a lot of people their launches flop because they don't have enough quality eyeballs on their offers. It's because they only focused on attracting those eyeballs so close to the cart close and it's like "OK, so you're like sending me like a flood of e-mail. You know and I've never really heard of you until now. And, now you're here. OK." So kind of like gives off that feeling that ‘oh you only care about helping me when it's like helpful for you.’ When it's like during your launch time when you need me sort of thing. You don't want to create that sort of feeling to anyone. And, so just being consistent and showing up with a core topic, core message that your business entirely stands for. That is the key and that's helpful.
Anna Jonak [00:41:06] I think like you said it's almost basically being an authority and adding value all year round, isn't it? It's kind of like what you know. Yeah. So how can you, whether it's through a Facebook Live or throwing out some content or you know constantly outputting content or something new. And, we are the first to admit that we've been in a launch cycle where some of that hasn't been considered over time. Like and I think it's something that we've definitely really identified for us in the last six months is that absolutely being key. So like literally everything you're saying to me tonight is like it just reinforces completely where we are it and how we consider things and what we've learned. So, I think hopefully for those that have been who are in the course space and have been listening to us for some time and are now listening to with all the things that we've taught, this is really absolutely reinforcing the importance of so many different elements from interviews to conversations to surveys to turning up, to values, taking responsibility and slightly love you a little bit. I'm just saying that. So, love it. [Mai-kee says "Oh I love you, too. I love that we're able to talk about this and just geek out over it"] Totally. I know right. Like Flori and I both get different people, when you came I was like she's mine. [both laugh] She's mine. I want to talk this. I know I'm going to geek out and I totally have. And I know that you also have something really awesome that I'd love for you to share with regards to what you've got coming up because I think that it would be really valuable for a lot of people in our program and again our listeners with respect to the podcast space and what you're doing in this space.
Mai-kee Tsang [00:42:30] Yes. Well thank you so much for that. So, what I just mentioned about pre-launch priming and just like being and just showing up as an authority all year round, so something that I've got into is guesting on podcast and so because the thing is with podcasting and it's not about necessarily having a podcast but being a guest on one. You can have both but being a guest on a podcast, it really accelerates the know, like and trust factor because if somebody is listening to you for over 30 minutes 40 minutes an hour just uninterrupted, you have got their attention and podcasting is so different from video and blogging. Again, I'm not dissing those. I'm just seeing the power of podcasting. And, the thing is with videos or blogs you have to stop in your day to consume that. You have to pay attention. [Anna agrees] But with podcasting, you don't. It fits around your day. Like for me it fits into my day when I'm cooking or going on a walk or washing the dishes. You know there are so many ways and the thing is, it builds trust without us knowing and because such an intimate experience between your ear pods. You know if you're creating that relationships accelerating that know, like and trust factor in such a small amount of time. And I thought this is very interesting. So, I actually started to pitch to podcast and I just really understood how quick that is to help build relationships not just with the audience but also with the hosts. I mean Anna like you and I like totally rifting. [Anna agrees] And like you know now there is potential talking about this topic to your audience which I think is actually amazing. So just it's all about building relationships for the long term. There is no short-term approach here. And so, what I've actually learned after pitching to one hundred and one podcasts. [Anna says "Holy moly. Good work. Did you do it in a hundred days? That would be like you know you did the 13 launches in a year."] Yeah, it's a lot of work. It's actually around 30 days. [Anna says "really?"] So, it was a huge challenge for sure. [Anna says "This lady is an action taker. I love it."] I think challenges really make you thrive. But anyhow. And, the thing is I started getting a lot more yes's than I thought. I got a yes in one in every three pitches I sent and it's all because I focused on them and I really feel that you know being a copywriter probably helped here. I do want to actually share the secrets on a masterclass so by the time this episode airs I would have just ran it. But I will send a link to Anna so that you can access the replay if you are interested in learning about how to send a value-rich and audience-focused pitch. That is the key. [Anna says "Perfect."] Yes. Because a lot of pitches I have received are very conceited let's just say. [laughs] It's like "oh I can offer an amazing value to your audience. Your podcast is amazing." I'm like well obviously you don't listen to it. You're not referencing it properly and just a lot of people just don't know how to send a good pitch and the thing is I want to help those who actually do want to provide value and their expertise to an audience because ultimately is a win-win-win. It's a win for you as a person who's been a guest expert. It's an awesome opportunity. It's a win for the podcaster who you're reaching out to because they know like "oh I've got a quality guest for my show" and then it's also a win for the listener, it's like "oh I'm getting value from this." So, it is a win all round and I really want to be able to facilitate this environment where we actually create really valuable pitches and so on at this masterclass that I'll send you replay to I will be breaking down live my worst pitch and my bad pitch. [Anna says "Get the notepad ready. Come on, copy queen. She's got some gold."] Yes, get the notepad ready. Yeah. And I'll also share a course the eight live elements that you should have in a pitch, just things like no pressure sign off, just an interesting hook. I mean for your pitch I actually look at the one I sent to you guys, to you and Flori. I attached a picture of myself lying down on the streets of London.
Anna Jonak [00:45:56] You really did. [Mai-kee says "I did"] That's why I was like yes. I mean this lady I'm talking to her.
Mai-kee Tsang [00:46:05] Yeah. So, that is what I have. It's just really, it's a masterclass to really help you to guest on podcast to accelerate your authority building, build up the know, like and trust factor. And, just really help you with your prelaunch priming. And, I do have a program that is attached to that if you are interested at all just to learn from the whole process from actually researching a podcast that you should be on, understanding your mindset block, impostor syndrome will come up at one point. And, of course how to rock the interviews. So, how to jump on the call, how to ease your nerves, how to deliver massive value, and how to maximise this opportunity so when the episode airs like how will you share it? It's just things like that, completely from a to z. So, if you are interested at all I would love you to learn from the masterclass and the opportunity will be there to join if you're so inclined but I know you will get value just from the masterclass if that's where you want to start.
Anna Jonak [00:46:52] Totally. I'm assuming you have a link that we can like embed into the audio? Is there anything that you can send us to right now?
Mai-kee Tsang [00:46:59] Oh yes. Oh yes, I can. So it's masterclass.maiKeetsang.com.
Anna Jonak [00:47:04] OK perfect and we will link to that in the show notes. And seriously, I urge you to get onto it because it's all about building your authority, creating those connections, what a fantastic opportunity. I'll be tuning into the replay or the live depending on what time it is because I think what an opportunity and you've been such a pleasure to host. I'm so excited. It's been so you know so many amazing tips that people can listen to again and again. Normally, we wrap up with a parting thought. Is there anything you'd like to leave our listeners thinking about on the topic of launches or mindset or podcasting? Anything punchy I'm sure as a copywriter. Hashtag no pressure. I'm leaving you right now. [both laugh]
Mai-kee Tsang [00:47:43] OK. I am going to share something called the rooftop reminder. OK so this is something that I learned from being an event coordinator and so I witnessed firsthand this tech millionaire teach a group of people in this room how to run a tech business and then as soon as somebody said, but what if somebody has the same idea as me? OK, so this is going to resonate with you if you think that oh there's competitors in my space, right? So, the speaker's name, his name is Vin Tanand he said OK tell you what guys if I was to start business with helping to convert rooftops to have solar panels on them for solar energy. Do you really think I will be able to reach every rooftop in the world? And everyone's like well no. You know there's a lot of rooftop. And he's like exactly. So, the fact that there is someone else is also doing this. We are working towards this together. That's what you need to think about.
Anna Jonak [00:48:24] Beautiful. You're working for it together and there's always room. There's always room. [Mai-kee agrees] I think our lady who does the social media, Vikki, put something there's enough sun for everybody which really fits nicely with what you say.
Mai-kee Tsang [00:48:37] Oh yeah. Oh, that is perfect. I love that. [Anna says "It is."] Yes. So, if anyone is thinking that "oh my gosh what do I have to say?" Trust me. Your voice, your message, the way that you carry yourself, the way that your business operates, that is going to hit home for someone and it's not going to hit home for another person. But that's OK because if you really are doing this for the right reasons that beyond just the money because launches yes, they are lucrative when you get them right. But, at the end of the day you're launching because you have a bigger impact to make. [Anna agrees] And if that is true, then you won't care that there's competitors you're going to think "Oh my God. Thank God. There are more people to cover the spaces that I can't reach. And so that is why I want you to think about. This is the rooftop reminder.
Anna Jonak [00:49:17] Nice. I love it. What a way to wrap up and they're all tied in perfectly. All right ladies, it's been amazing. I trust that we'll put the links up get involved and remember, elevate your game in business.
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